Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks


Sam Buttrey
 

I've enjoyed the helpful discussion regarding using BIAB's midi output (and a suitable sound source) vs. Real Tracks. Following Bob Norton, I don't object to losing a little purity of musical tone, in exchange for the convenience of Midi. But surely there's another aspect: that is, whether the Midi itself is well constructed. Even with an excellent sound module, some Midi files might well sound mechanical, by virtue of hyper-precise timing, no variability in velocities, and so on. I know Bob sells his own styles, and I'm sure they're excellent, but my question to anyone listening is, are the built-in BIAB styles generally rich enough in this sort of variation to sound like (excuse me) a real band? Are some genres generally better than others, or maybe are more recent styles better than older ones?
I appreciate any thoughts you might have,
Sam B. from near Monterey, CA


David H. Bailey
 

On 2/8/2021 3:41 PM, Sam Buttrey wrote:
I've enjoyed the helpful discussion regarding using BIAB's midi output (and a suitable sound source) vs. Real Tracks. Following Bob Norton, I don't object to losing a little purity of musical tone, in exchange for the convenience of Midi. But surely there's another aspect: that is, whether the Midi itself is well constructed. Even with an excellent sound module, some Midi files might well sound mechanical, by virtue of hyper-precise timing, no variability in velocities, and so on. I know Bob sells his own styles, and I'm sure they're excellent, but my question to anyone listening is, are the built-in BIAB styles generally rich enough in this sort of variation to sound like (excuse me) a real band? Are some genres generally better than others, or maybe are more recent styles better than older ones?
I appreciate any thoughts you might have,
[snip]

For years we could only use midi styles because that's all there were and I was very happy with them when using an external midi module or keyboard. Using the windows built-in fm synth they were horrible. It was the tone -- the timing was fine and when played with great sounds they sounded fine.

Then PGMusic started including the Coyote DXi soft-synth so that people who didn't have external modules/synths could have better sounds than the fm-synth built into most soundcards or the Windows fm-synth soft-synth.

Then PGMusic started using "Real Drums" because many people didn't like the possibly overly precise drums of the midi styls that PGMusic sold with BIAB. Then they branched out into "realtracks" of other instruments and kept on improving their technology and sampling methods and the algoriths of using the realtracks and realdrums until we get to these days when they work very nicely except that PGMusic hasn't quite figured out how to get the endings right the way they have with Midi styles. Many (most?) realstyles endings work fine but there are many where one or more of the realtracks keeps on playing as if they were played by an excellent musician who wasn't paying attention.

However not all the realstyless are the same as the midi styles, and there are some midi styles that I prefer to the comparable realstyles so I am extra glad that we've got good soft-synths to use so that I can continue to use those midi styles I like best along with realstyles I also like.

Having good softsynths to work with BIAB is especially important for me because I use BIAB a lot in my private lessons, which are all online now. I teach using either Zoom or Skype (I give my students their choice) and I share my computer's sound so that they can have backing tracks to play along with. For the past year I've been finding a comparable realstyle to use in place of the midi styles, and that grows old fast when I'm in the middle of a lesson. Which is why this whole discussion about soft-synths has been so great.

Now that I have the HalionSE installed and working, and have managed to separate TTS-1 from the Cakewalk installation so I can decide whether or not I want to uninstall Cakewal or keep it, I can use both midi styles or realstyles as I wish.

I appreciate all those who have participated in this discussion. I'm sure it's opened many people's minds to other possibilities than just using the realstyles.


--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


D F Tweedie
 

Almost all competent DAWs contain MIDI plugins or features in the track headers to introduce 'humanizing' into the MIDI playback of a track. They do this by including parameters, for examples, that permit you to choose ranges for timing, note length, velocity, etc., in random manner that changes 'mechanical' note entry into something more interesting.

This does not take into account the additional 'massaging' that can be accomplished through a DAW's MIDI editor.

On Monday, February 8, 2021, 12:42:05 PM PST, Sam Buttrey <buttrey@...> wrote:


I've enjoyed the helpful discussion regarding using BIAB's midi output (and a suitable sound source) vs. Real Tracks. Following Bob Norton, I don't object to losing a little purity of musical tone, in exchange for the convenience of Midi. But surely there's another aspect: that is, whether the Midi itself is well constructed. Even with an excellent sound module, some Midi files might well sound mechanical, by virtue of hyper-precise timing, no variability in velocities, and so on. I know Bob sells his own styles, and I'm sure they're excellent, but my question to anyone listening is, are the built-in BIAB styles generally rich enough in this sort of variation to sound like (excuse me) a real band? Are some genres generally better than others, or maybe are more recent styles better than older ones?
I appreciate any thoughts you might have,
Sam B. from near Monterey, CA


Bob 'Notes' Norton <norton@...>
 

A problem with MIDI is that it's easier to make a bad MIDI file than a bad recorded audio file. You don't need microphones, pristine audio environments or the skill to actually play a musician instrument.

That means there are a lot of bad MIDI files out there.

For BiaB styles, most of PG Music, Norton Music, Roy Hawkesford and Sherry Mayrent MIDI styles are done well.

Notes

On 2/8/2021 3:41 PM, Sam Buttrey wrote:
I've enjoyed the helpful discussion regarding using BIAB's midi output (and a suitable sound source) vs. Real Tracks. Following Bob Norton, I don't object to losing a little purity of musical tone, in exchange for the convenience of Midi. But surely there's another aspect: that is, whether the Midi itself is well constructed. Even with an excellent sound module, some Midi files might well sound mechanical, by virtue of hyper-precise timing, no variability in velocities, and so on. I know Bob sells his own styles, and I'm sure they're excellent, but my question to anyone listening is, are the built-in BIAB styles generally rich enough in this sort of variation to sound like (excuse me) a real band? Are some genres generally better than others, or maybe are more recent styles better than older ones?
I appreciate any thoughts you might have,
Sam B. from near Monterey, CA

-- 
Bob "Notes" Norton
norton@...
Norton Music - http://www.nortonmusic.com
The Sophisticats® - http://www.s-cats.com


Bob 'Notes' Norton <norton@...>
 

Another problem I have with Real Tracks is mixing and matching real tracks that weren't meant to be played together.

With MIDI styles, the drum, bass, and comp tracks are composed as a unit. They are meant to be played together so the timing of the drum and bass, the swing factor, the groove, and everything else is precise, plus the parts are meant to complement each other. And as David Bailey noted, the endings are also meant to be played together.

Mixing and matching real tracks that weren't made to be played together ls like a number of different musicians not listening to each other.

I have the same problem when substituting real drums with a MIDI style. I've played both bass and drums in different bands, and one thing I know is that the bassist and drummer should work together as if they are one instrument. Accents, precise timing, and rhythm elements MUST be in sync if you want a good, cohesive groove. Substituting and 'all-purpose' drum track will destroy that.

And so many real styles have soloists in them, which in my opinion get in the way of the melody of the song. It's nice for an instrumentalist to add fills to complement and/or contrast to the melody, but that player must listen to the melody, find the 'holes' in the melody to fill, and then use taste and judgement to play an appropriate fill that won't either overpower or distract from the melody. There is no way that can be done in a style in advance without knowing the song that style is going to be used for AND the phrasing the melody player will use. That's why Norton MIDI style do not include these parts.

There are a lot of people who obviously love the real styles, and there is nothing wrong with that. There is more than one right way to play music. But I've been a pro musician all my life, I've played bass, drums, guitar, keys, and wind instruments in bands, and I want the styles to sound like they would if I were in the band playing with the other instruments. I'm picky that way. I'd rather have the band as one cohesive unit than a bunch of players with great tone playing great lines but not listening to each other.

»»»O«««<<<
Bob "Notes" Norton • owner, Norton Music • http://www.nortonmusic.com
BiaB user styles with live entered parts for that live music groove for musicians who want BiaB to sound like real musicians and not robots.


William Prentice
 

I understand how "tight" the MIDI sounds but don't see what makes it any easier.  I always try to re-record the MIDI track with a stereo mic setup just to add some "space" to the instrument.  I use a pair of monitors that I can mic in stereo for the MIDI track and then I also have the band playing along in the room so I get some bleed.  Seems worth all the effort and I end up with a MIDI tone that sounds more live.  

When I write a song, I start with a style I can work with. Then I start searching for the players that will be in the band...all such polite musicians...nobody ever complains when I tell their part is no longer needed.  Sometimes I find a fill instrument, maybe in swing time that will work while the song is in even 8.  The part may not be useable for the entire song but I regenerating the track until I find the parts that do work, freeze the track then export the audio so the player, playing what I want him to play, is always available.  This is where the creative fun begins.  When I have the first band assembled, record the vocals and whatever instruments I will add.  I then make a master mix on the vocal tracks, import the audio tracks back into BNAB and then end up with a few alternate mixes with different instruments...different styles, all singing with the same vocal-audio tracks. When it is all done, I have a few user BNAB styles not included with the purchase price and most of the time find an even better version of my song.  I do enjoy the entire process.  Love the higher sample rates!  Real Tracks or MIDI, it's all fun!

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021, 07:44:59 AM MST, Bob 'Notes' Norton <norton@...> wrote:


Another problem I have with Real Tracks is mixing and matching real
tracks that weren't meant to be played together.

With MIDI styles, the drum, bass, and comp tracks are composed as a
unit. They are meant to be played together so the timing of the drum and
bass, the swing factor, the groove, and everything else is precise, plus
the parts are meant to complement each other. And as David Bailey noted,
the endings are also meant to be played together.

Mixing and matching real tracks that weren't made to be played together
ls like a number of different musicians not listening to each other.

I have the same problem when substituting real drums with a MIDI style.
I've played both bass and drums in different bands, and one thing I know
is that the bassist and drummer should work together as if they are one
instrument. Accents, precise timing, and rhythm elements MUST be in sync
if you want a good, cohesive groove. Substituting and 'all-purpose' drum
track will destroy that.

And so many real styles have soloists in them, which in my opinion get
in the way of the melody of the song. It's nice for an instrumentalist
to add fills to complement and/or contrast to the melody, but that
player must listen to the melody, find the 'holes' in the melody to
fill, and then use taste and judgement to play an appropriate fill that
won't either overpower or distract from the melody. There is no way that
can be done in a style in advance without knowing the song that style is
going to be used for AND the phrasing the melody player will use. That's
why Norton MIDI style do not include these parts.

There are a lot of people who obviously love the real styles, and there
is nothing wrong with that. There is more than one right way to play
music. But I've been a pro musician all my life, I've played bass,
drums, guitar, keys, and wind instruments in bands, and I want the
styles to sound like they would if I were in the band playing with the
other instruments. I'm picky that way. I'd rather have the band as one
cohesive unit than a bunch of players with great tone playing great
lines but not listening to each other.

>>>»»»O«««<<<
Bob "Notes" Norton • owner, Norton Music • http://www.nortonmusic.com
BiaB user styles with live entered parts for that live music groove for
musicians who want BiaB to sound like real musicians and not robots.






Bob 'Notes' Norton <norton@...>
 

I'm not fond of humanizing at all. "Humanizing" moves the notes around in a random fashion controlled only by how much you let them vary from their starting point. To me randomizing does nothing but increase the slop factor.

For most modern popular forms of music, the musicians do not play in sync with the tempo as if they are step-entered, but whether consciously or unconsciously play certain notes intentionally either ahead or behind the beat. It's consistent and not random at all.

Example 1: Swing is somewhere between a triplet and a dotted eights / sixteenth note rhythm. But how much? Some gentle swings are closer to the triplet and some are closer to the dotted eighth / sixteenth. It depends on the song and the interpretation of that song. And if mixing two real tracks with different swing factors, what you get is a sloppy band.

Example 2: Beat 2 and 4 of a 4/4 tempo song. Sometimes beat 2 and 4 are rushed ahead of the beat, sometimes they lag behind the beat. And again how much ahead or behind? The entire band needs to be together. So if mixing two real tracks that don't have the 2s and 4s in the same place, you get slop.

Example 3: Beat 2 of a 3/4 song is often rushed ahead of the beat. When I was in school band, the band director played different recordings of Strauss Waltzes by different orchestras to demonstrate how different conductors rushed that second beat by different amounts. It was my first introduction to what we call the groove in popular music.

Example 4: Eighth notes are often not played exactly equal either. When you step enter a single stroke roll on a snare drum it sounds like a machine drum. Real drummers have one hand stronger than the other so one is more aggressive than the other. Plus one hits harder and on a slightly different part of the drum head. Similarly guitarists usually have more force on a down-stroke than an up-stroke. I could go on and on.

Example 5: When the bassist and drummer are in sync, if the bass player plays a microsecond ahead of the kick drum, it emphasizes the notes of the bass line. Conversely if the bass lags the kick drum a hair, the thud of the kick drum is emphasized. Crash cymbals are usually hit a hair early for that same reason. Humanizing would ruin all of this.

Leilani and I took ballroom dancing because what better way to see which beats or sub-beats should be rushed or delayed than to dance the appropriate dances? When the groove is right, it moves the dancers, when the dancers are moved, they have a great time, and when they have a great time, they re-hire the band. The result was when we worked on the cruise ships, there was a 20 piece orchestra that played ballroom dance music, but the ballroom dancers would come to dance with us.

Leilani already knew how to do most popular dances so we had that under control from the start.

In the recording studio, the drummer sets the groove. The drummer is the king/queen of the groove, and all the other players must listen to the drummer's groove and sync in with it, if not, they won't be called back for another session. If two different real tracks are playing to a different groove, you get beautiful tone but not beautiful music.

Humanizing is randomizing. The groove is deliberate, and it breathes life into the music.

There is a lot that takes these notes and turns them into something that touches the listener. Rhythm is one piece of the puzzle, perhaps the most basic. After that we have dynamics, phrasing, ornaments, and quite a few others. Having a life of music is a life of learning, and that's one of the things I love about it. No matter how much I learn, there is always a new discovery ahead, whether I make it on my own, I learn it from a master, or I learn it from a student (and a good teacher always learns from students).

>>>»»»O«««<<<
Bob "Notes" Norton • owner, Norton Music • http://www.nortonmusic.com
BiaB user styles with live entered parts for that live music groove for musicians who want BiaB to sound like real musicians and not robots.


On 2/8/2021 8:50 PM, D F Tweedie via groups.io wrote:
Almost all competent DAWs contain MIDI plugins or features in the track headers to introduce 'humanizing' into the MIDI playback of a track. They do this by including parameters, for examples, that permit you to choose ranges for timing, note length, velocity, etc., in random manner that changes 'mechanical' note entry into something more interesting.

This does not take into account the additional 'massaging' that can be accomplished through a DAW's MIDI editor.



D F Tweedie
 

Bob, I overwhelmingly defer to your opinions, but I think you are being slightly harsh.

'Humanizing' and groove are not antithetical. They can be complimentary. 'Humanizing' randomization doesn't have have to be mindless.

A well done MIDI file can have a great groove with the drums and other tracks properly in their respective pockets. It can of course depend if those drums and instruments were played in or programmed.

With programmed files the note velocities and note lengths may be too exacting and repetetive. So you keep the note starts almost untouched with maybe a range of -3 to +10 ticks and a slightly larger range of maybe -5 to + 15 ticks for note ending and velocity. Your still will probably be more exacting than a human player but you'll have a better feel over all.

I think all tools and techniques have their place ... and any can be used inapproriately.

On Tuesday, February 9, 2021, 10:13:35 PM PST, Bob 'Notes' Norton <norton@...> wrote:


I'm not fond of humanizing at all. "Humanizing" moves the notes around in a random fashion controlled only by how much you let them vary from their starting point. To me randomizing does nothing but increase the slop factor.

For most modern popular forms of music, the musicians do not play in sync with the tempo as if they are step-entered, but whether consciously or unconsciously play certain notes intentionally either ahead or behind the beat. It's consistent and not random at all.

Example 1: Swing is somewhere between a triplet and a dotted eights / sixteenth note rhythm. But how much? Some gentle swings are closer to the triplet and some are closer to the dotted eighth / sixteenth. It depends on the song and the interpretation of that song. And if mixing two real tracks with different swing factors, what you get is a sloppy band.

Example 2: Beat 2 and 4 of a 4/4 tempo song. Sometimes beat 2 and 4 are rushed ahead of the beat, sometimes they lag behind the beat. And again how much ahead or behind? The entire band needs to be together. So if mixing two real tracks that don't have the 2s and 4s in the same place, you get slop.

Example 3: Beat 2 of a 3/4 song is often rushed ahead of the beat. When I was in school band, the band director played different recordings of Strauss Waltzes by different orchestras to demonstrate how different conductors rushed that second beat by different amounts. It was my first introduction to what we call the groove in popular music.

Example 4: Eighth notes are often not played exactly equal either. When you step enter a single stroke roll on a snare drum it sounds like a machine drum. Real drummers have one hand stronger than the other so one is more aggressive than the other. Plus one hits harder and on a slightly different part of the drum head. Similarly guitarists usually have more force on a down-stroke than an up-stroke. I could go on and on.

Example 5: When the bassist and drummer are in sync, if the bass player plays a microsecond ahead of the kick drum, it emphasizes the notes of the bass line. Conversely if the bass lags the kick drum a hair, the thud of the kick drum is emphasized. Crash cymbals are usually hit a hair early for that same reason. Humanizing would ruin all of this.

Leilani and I took ballroom dancing because what better way to see which beats or sub-beats should be rushed or delayed than to dance the appropriate dances? When the groove is right, it moves the dancers, when the dancers are moved, they have a great time, and when they have a great time, they re-hire the band. The result was when we worked on the cruise ships, there was a 20 piece orchestra that played ballroom dance music, but the ballroom dancers would come to dance with us.

Leilani already knew how to do most popular dances so we had that under control from the start.

In the recording studio, the drummer sets the groove. The drummer is the king/queen of the groove, and all the other players must listen to the drummer's groove and sync in with it, if not, they won't be called back for another session. If two different real tracks are playing to a different groove, you get beautiful tone but not beautiful music.

Humanizing is randomizing. The groove is deliberate, and it breathes life into the music.

There is a lot that takes these notes and turns them into something that touches the listener. Rhythm is one piece of the puzzle, perhaps the most basic. After that we have dynamics, phrasing, ornaments, and quite a few others. Having a life of music is a life of learning, and that's one of the things I love about it. No matter how much I learn, there is always a new discovery ahead, whether I make it on my own, I learn it from a master, or I learn it from a student (and a good teacher always learns from students).

>>>»»»O«««<<<
Bob "Notes" Norton • owner, Norton Music • http://www.nortonmusic.com
BiaB user styles with live entered parts for that live music groove for musicians who want BiaB to sound like real musicians and not robots.


On 2/8/2021 8:50 PM, D F Tweedie via groups.io wrote:
Almost all competent DAWs contain MIDI plugins or features in the track headers to introduce 'humanizing' into the MIDI playback of a track. They do this by including parameters, for examples, that permit you to choose ranges for timing, note length, velocity, etc., in random manner that changes 'mechanical' note entry into something more interesting.

This does not take into account the additional 'massaging' that can be accomplished through a DAW's MIDI editor.



@Dzjang
 

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)



Media Production
 

Hi Jan—

 

Can you share some links to your BIAB productions where you used your own styles…….it would be great to hear your productions.

 

Rodger

 

 

From: jan@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 12:08 AM
To: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Band-In-A-Box] Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks

 

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)

 


IAN GRAHAM
 

Lucid ! Thanks, Bob !

On 09/02/2021 21:08, Bob 'Notes' Norton wrote:
I'm not fond of humanizing at all. "Humanizing" moves the notes around in a random fashion controlled only by how much you let them vary from their starting point. To me randomizing does nothing but increase the slop factor.

For most modern popular forms of music, the musicians do not play in sync with the tempo as if they are step-entered, but whether consciously or unconsciously play certain notes intentionally either ahead or behind the beat. It's consistent and not random at all.

Example 1: Swing is somewhere between a triplet and a dotted eights / sixteenth note rhythm. But how much? Some gentle swings are closer to the triplet and some are closer to the dotted eighth / sixteenth. It depends on the song and the interpretation of that song. And if mixing two real tracks with different swing factors, what you get is a sloppy band.

Example 2: Beat 2 and 4 of a 4/4 tempo song. Sometimes beat 2 and 4 are rushed ahead of the beat, sometimes they lag behind the beat. And again how much ahead or behind? The entire band needs to be together. So if mixing two real tracks that don't have the 2s and 4s in the same place, you get slop.

Example 3: Beat 2 of a 3/4 song is often rushed ahead of the beat. When I was in school band, the band director played different recordings of Strauss Waltzes by different orchestras to demonstrate how different conductors rushed that second beat by different amounts. It was my first introduction to what we call the groove in popular music.

Example 4: Eighth notes are often not played exactly equal either. When you step enter a single stroke roll on a snare drum it sounds like a machine drum. Real drummers have one hand stronger than the other so one is more aggressive than the other. Plus one hits harder and on a slightly different part of the drum head. Similarly guitarists usually have more force on a down-stroke than an up-stroke. I could go on and on.

Example 5: When the bassist and drummer are in sync, if the bass player plays a microsecond ahead of the kick drum, it emphasizes the notes of the bass line. Conversely if the bass lags the kick drum a hair, the thud of the kick drum is emphasized. Crash cymbals are usually hit a hair early for that same reason. Humanizing would ruin all of this.

Leilani and I took ballroom dancing because what better way to see which beats or sub-beats should be rushed or delayed than to dance the appropriate dances? When the groove is right, it moves the dancers, when the dancers are moved, they have a great time, and when they have a great time, they re-hire the band. The result was when we worked on the cruise ships, there was a 20 piece orchestra that played ballroom dance music, but the ballroom dancers would come to dance with us.

Leilani already knew how to do most popular dances so we had that under control from the start.

In the recording studio, the drummer sets the groove. The drummer is the king/queen of the groove, and all the other players must listen to the drummer's groove and sync in with it, if not, they won't be called back for another session. If two different real tracks are playing to a different groove, you get beautiful tone but not beautiful music.

Humanizing is randomizing. The groove is deliberate, and it breathes life into the music.

There is a lot that takes these notes and turns them into something that touches the listener. Rhythm is one piece of the puzzle, perhaps the most basic. After that we have dynamics, phrasing, ornaments, and quite a few others. Having a life of music is a life of learning, and that's one of the things I love about it. No matter how much I learn, there is always a new discovery ahead, whether I make it on my own, I learn it from a master, or I learn it from a student (and a good teacher always learns from students).

>>>»»»O«««<<<
Bob "Notes" Norton • owner, Norton Music • http://www.nortonmusic.com
BiaB user styles with live entered parts for that live music groove for musicians who want BiaB to sound like real musicians and not robots.


On 2/8/2021 8:50 PM, D F Tweedie via groups.io wrote:
Almost all competent DAWs contain MIDI plugins or features in the track headers to introduce 'humanizing' into the MIDI playback of a track. They do this by including parameters, for examples, that permit you to choose ranges for timing, note length, velocity, etc., in random manner that changes 'mechanical' note entry into something more interesting.

This does not take into account the additional 'massaging' that can be accomplished through a DAW's MIDI editor.



IAN GRAHAM
 

The sequence of  threads this past week or so has been one of the most enjoyable and enlightening I've ever shared, on any topic, on any group. A massive vindication of this group. Thank you, everyone. 

On Jan's specific point: my line of attack in Biab has up to now usually been to pursue some sort of vaguely-formulated feel or sound. Recent exchanges prompted an alternative thought, probably more appropriate to the limitations of my own musicianship: if there are 'good' styles in the way that Jan means, maybe I'd do better to agonise less over the choice of a style, or the assembly of a set of parts (take your point here too, Mr Norton), and simply try and accommodate my own line to that groove ?

Which leads on to a final practical point: Jan says "there are styles in there that are really intricate......" Would members like to flag up the styles they think meet this high standard of quality?

Sincerely

Ian G

Wales UK

On 10/02/2021 08:07, jan@... wrote:

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)



Media Production
 

This recent BIAB topic has created an amazing opportunity  for many to share their creative BIAB  workflows and applications.  It would be great to see

Videos on the way people are using BIAB and hear their final mixes.   And even better to listen to the custom styles and they styles that people tweak.

 

I’m actually surprised someone has not taken the lead to develop a BIAB You tube channel to showcase all the ways BIAB can be used.  This could create an opportunity for someone to build a big user base with subscribers on You tube and monetize their videos. 

 

I sometimes watch Rick Beato music videos on You tube and he is such an inspiration as a big leader in the success he has in monetizing his music videos on Youtube—I figured he is making a minimum of $50K a year just in You Tube ad sharing revenue---and it is a very minimal small effort in part-time  few hours a week in his interesting music critique videos and some music instruction in theory, songwriting, tolls and tips….such a inspiring business model to follow.

 

Rodger

 

From: IAN GRAHAM via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 1:35 AM
To: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Band-In-A-Box] Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks

 

The sequence of  threads this past week or so has been one of the most enjoyable and enlightening I've ever shared, on any topic, on any group. A massive vindication of this group. Thank you, everyone. 

On Jan's specific point: my line of attack in Biab has up to now usually been to pursue some sort of vaguely-formulated feel or sound. Recent exchanges prompted an alternative thought, probably more appropriate to the limitations of my own musicianship: if there are 'good' styles in the way that Jan means, maybe I'd do better to agonise less over the choice of a style, or the assembly of a set of parts (take your point here too, Mr Norton), and simply try and accommodate my own line to that groove ?

Which leads on to a final practical point: Jan says "there are styles in there that are really intricate......" Would members like to flag up the styles they think meet this high standard of quality?

Sincerely

Ian G

Wales UK

On 10/02/2021 08:07, jan@... wrote:

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)

 


rob
 

great idea Rodger                                                                                 rob ! 

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021, 07:22:31 a.m. EST, Media Production <media_production@...> wrote:


This recent BIAB topic has created an amazing opportunity  for many to share their creative BIAB  workflows and applications.  It would be great to see

Videos on the way people are using BIAB and hear their final mixes.   And even better to listen to the custom styles and they styles that people tweak.

 

I’m actually surprised someone has not taken the lead to develop a BIAB You tube channel to showcase all the ways BIAB can be used.  This could create an opportunity for someone to build a big user base with subscribers on You tube and monetize their videos. 

 

I sometimes watch Rick Beato music videos on You tube and he is such an inspiration as a big leader in the success he has in monetizing his music videos on Youtube—I figured he is making a minimum of $50K a year just in You Tube ad sharing revenue---and it is a very minimal small effort in part-time  few hours a week in his interesting music critique videos and some music instruction in theory, songwriting, tolls and tips….such a inspiring business model to follow.

 

Rodger

 

From: IAN GRAHAM via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 1:35 AM
To: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Band-In-A-Box] Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks

 

The sequence of  threads this past week or so has been one of the most enjoyable and enlightening I've ever shared, on any topic, on any group. A massive vindication of this group. Thank you, everyone. 

On Jan's specific point: my line of attack in Biab has up to now usually been to pursue some sort of vaguely-formulated feel or sound. Recent exchanges prompted an alternative thought, probably more appropriate to the limitations of my own musicianship: if there are 'good' styles in the way that Jan means, maybe I'd do better to agonise less over the choice of a style, or the assembly of a set of parts (take your point here too, Mr Norton), and simply try and accommodate my own line to that groove ?

Which leads on to a final practical point: Jan says "there are styles in there that are really intricate......" Would members like to flag up the styles they think meet this high standard of quality?

Sincerely

Ian G

Wales UK

On 10/02/2021 08:07, jan@... wrote:

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)

 


David H. Bailey
 

On 2/10/2021 7:22 AM, Media Production wrote:
This recent BIAB topic has created an amazing opportunity  for many to share their creative BIAB  workflows and applications.  It would be great to see
Videos on the way people are using BIAB and hear their final mixes. And even better to listen to the custom styles and they styles that people tweak.
I’m actually surprised someone has not taken the lead to develop a BIAB You tube channel to showcase all the ways BIAB can be used.  This could create an opportunity for someone to build a big user base with subscribers on You tube and monetize their videos.
[snip]


Great idea! Why don't you start it?


--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


nadpete@...
 

Hi Jan,

I add my own request to Rodger's: It would be great to hear your styles in action. I'm very intrigued by what you've created, but I'd like to hear a sample or two.

Peter


D F Tweedie
 

Rodger

I love Rick Beato's channel!

There is a guy, Henry Clark, who is very active on the PG Music forum who has a lot of BIAB videos on YouTube. He focuses on creating entire tracks and songs, mostly covers. He's very entertaining.

DF

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021, 4:22:21 AM PST, Media Production <media_production@...> wrote:


This recent BIAB topic has created an amazing opportunity  for many to share their creative BIAB  workflows and applications.  It would be great to see

Videos on the way people are using BIAB and hear their final mixes.   And even better to listen to the custom styles and they styles that people tweak.

 

I’m actually surprised someone has not taken the lead to develop a BIAB You tube channel to showcase all the ways BIAB can be used.  This could create an opportunity for someone to build a big user base with subscribers on You tube and monetize their videos. 

 

I sometimes watch Rick Beato music videos on You tube and he is such an inspiration as a big leader in the success he has in monetizing his music videos on Youtube—I figured he is making a minimum of $50K a year just in You Tube ad sharing revenue---and it is a very minimal small effort in part-time  few hours a week in his interesting music critique videos and some music instruction in theory, songwriting, tolls and tips….such a inspiring business model to follow.

 

Rodger

 

From: IAN GRAHAM via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 1:35 AM
To: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Band-In-A-Box] Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks

 

The sequence of  threads this past week or so has been one of the most enjoyable and enlightening I've ever shared, on any topic, on any group. A massive vindication of this group. Thank you, everyone. 

On Jan's specific point: my line of attack in Biab has up to now usually been to pursue some sort of vaguely-formulated feel or sound. Recent exchanges prompted an alternative thought, probably more appropriate to the limitations of my own musicianship: if there are 'good' styles in the way that Jan means, maybe I'd do better to agonise less over the choice of a style, or the assembly of a set of parts (take your point here too, Mr Norton), and simply try and accommodate my own line to that groove ?

Which leads on to a final practical point: Jan says "there are styles in there that are really intricate......" Would members like to flag up the styles they think meet this high standard of quality?

Sincerely

Ian G

Wales UK

On 10/02/2021 08:07, jan@... wrote:

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)

 


Hayward Martin
 

Just wish I had the ability to slow down Henry somewhat.  It seems as though he's had a few too many cups of coffee prior to recording his videos.  🙄


From: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io <main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io> on behalf of D F Tweedie via groups.io <bienpegaito@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 12:41:35 PM
To: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io <main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Band-In-A-Box] Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks
 
Rodger

I love Rick Beato's channel!

There is a guy, Henry Clark, who is very active on the PG Music forum who has a lot of BIAB videos on YouTube. He focuses on creating entire tracks and songs, mostly covers. He's very entertaining.

DF

On Wednesday, February 10, 2021, 4:22:21 AM PST, Media Production <media_production@...> wrote:


This recent BIAB topic has created an amazing opportunity  for many to share their creative BIAB  workflows and applications.  It would be great to see

Videos on the way people are using BIAB and hear their final mixes.   And even better to listen to the custom styles and they styles that people tweak.

 

I’m actually surprised someone has not taken the lead to develop a BIAB You tube channel to showcase all the ways BIAB can be used.  This could create an opportunity for someone to build a big user base with subscribers on You tube and monetize their videos. 

 

I sometimes watch Rick Beato music videos on You tube and he is such an inspiration as a big leader in the success he has in monetizing his music videos on Youtube—I figured he is making a minimum of $50K a year just in You Tube ad sharing revenue---and it is a very minimal small effort in part-time  few hours a week in his interesting music critique videos and some music instruction in theory, songwriting, tolls and tips….such a inspiring business model to follow.

 

Rodger

 

From: IAN GRAHAM via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 1:35 AM
To: main@Band-In-A-Box.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Band-In-A-Box] Midi vs Real Tracks (cont'd) #RealTracks

 

The sequence of  threads this past week or so has been one of the most enjoyable and enlightening I've ever shared, on any topic, on any group. A massive vindication of this group. Thank you, everyone. 

On Jan's specific point: my line of attack in Biab has up to now usually been to pursue some sort of vaguely-formulated feel or sound. Recent exchanges prompted an alternative thought, probably more appropriate to the limitations of my own musicianship: if there are 'good' styles in the way that Jan means, maybe I'd do better to agonise less over the choice of a style, or the assembly of a set of parts (take your point here too, Mr Norton), and simply try and accommodate my own line to that groove ?

Which leads on to a final practical point: Jan says "there are styles in there that are really intricate......" Would members like to flag up the styles they think meet this high standard of quality?

Sincerely

Ian G

Wales UK

On 10/02/2021 08:07, jan@... wrote:

I agree that most built in styles are mechanical, repetitive, bland. Nevertheless, there are styles in there that are really intricate.
pair them with good Kontakt libraries and you’d swear you heard a real band. 


As everyone seems to agree on: midi ain’t dead at all. 


Being really into ECM style jazz, Dejohnette, Joshua Redman, Joey Calderazzo, I came up with my own styles. Took me a long, long time to master stylemaking, but I am really proud of them. And enjoy playing with biab more, now. Even putting up with all the weirdness and bugs of it. :)

 


@Dzjang
 

Afro2swing style caught my ear and is really good and well made.


IAN GRAHAM
 

Noted, Jan

I have a very soft spot for Abdullah Ibrahim. I wish 'someone' would do a township style.

Ian G.

On 10/02/2021 20:29, jan@... wrote:
Afro2swing style caught my ear and is really good and well made.