Non GM banks and VST's (ie: Luxonix Purity) and BIAB


gksmith@rogers.com <gksmith@...>
 

Hi, I've been using BIAB for about 2 months - and following this forum for about 1 month (lots of great information and posts by the way)

I am trying to use VST's (the Luxonix Purity in particular) with BIAB.

Is there a way to get BIAB to use the non GM voices in this VST (or any other for that matter)?

In other words:
I open my song
I go Opt|Midi Audio Driver setup ... Use VST etc...
I select the purity VST in the list
I select --> electric guitar 054 18 2 or any other voice from a bank further down the list
I assign it as channel 8 in the VST (ie: BIAB solo track)
I close the VST
Then click Replay

But the solo track just reverts back to a patch in the 1st bank (ie: 1 through 128) - and does NOT play the sound I choose in the VST for the solo track.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

thanks g


D F Tweedie
 

On a song by song basis you need to do two things:

1st, as you know Purity has a 'GM' mode so that it automatically responds to GM patch messates 0-127 (or 1-128). If you want to use 'higher bank' patches then you must disable 'GM mode' and send all your midi messages using 'bank select' controller messages to Purity. This would include CC 0 MSB (data value, CC 32 LSB (data value) and Program Change (patch # value).

You can then send the GM patches, those you still want to use, to Purity using its bank select structure.  What are these values? You'll need to search the Purity documentation to find out.

2nd, now that you've determined the complete address of you patches in Purity, you need to tell BIAB how to find them. Unfortunately only Melody and Solo tracks permit using direct  bank select messages written into the BIAB track file ... for the other tracks you can only insert the correct program # using the GM numbers by modifying a style so that it plays that GM patch number (make sure to use 'save as.') So, program # 81, GM fiddle, will play the patch # 81 in Purity ... once you get the bank select messages correct. To modify patch numbers in Melody or Solo tracks go to the 'Notation' window and click on the little '#' sign button on the right side of the menu bar. This will open up a little window where you can enter patch numbers and various controller data and save it to the track.

Now we are at the last part. Go to options/channels. You will see that the far right columns show boxes for MSB and LSB for each track. Here is where you have to insert your Purity bank select value data so that Purity responds with the patch you want.

Make sure to save you song as you work on it. Otherwise the channel settings all disappear. They are only 'remembered' in the song, not in the system.

You can go a step further and learn about *.dk drum patch files. You are supposed to be able to use an alternative drum mapping to set the channels. That way, when you fire up BIAB and open your drum map, you are supposed to be able to recall the channels. FWIW, I've been having some hiccups getting this to properly respond on a regular basis.

Another work around, some what easier in some ways, is to bypass step 2 by exporting your file to midi, and then write the patch numbers with a midi program/ editor. You can now open the altered midi file back in BIAB with all the channels now on the Melody track ... which will respond to bank select controller messages.

One fine point. BIAB will rewrite the patch number on each rotation through the choruses at the beginning of the first bar. So if you have a song with 3 choruses and you rewrite the patch change for the file, you'll have to make sure you either do it 3 times or erase the latter 2 program change messages.

This should get you off to a good start. Purity is a really nice 'softsynth' workstation, far superior to the VSC IMO ... but I haven't bothered myself with the Forte, so I can't compare to that one.

Good luck.

Prado

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gksmith@rogers.com <gksmith@...>
 

Thanks kindly... very helpful....

I can now get the melody and solo track to play sounds from any bank in the VST... though I have to say that the method to do this is very cumbersome

Maybe I am missing something...
Shouldn't I be able to just choose a Bank and LSB right from the main screen for any track?

Whenever I do this - as soon as I choose a patch # from the drop down list - the Bank and LSB go back to zero.

(So is manually editing the Patch in the Opt|Channel prefs the only way????)

Also Am I correct that you cannot choose patches outside of GM and GM2 for the other tracks (piano/bass/strings etc...)???

Can anyone help?

Thanks...


David H. Bailey
 

gksmith@rogers.com wrote:
Thanks kindly... very helpful....
I can now get the melody and solo track to play sounds from any bank in the VST... though I have to say that the method to do this is very cumbersome
Maybe I am missing something...
Shouldn't I be able to just choose a Bank and LSB right from the main screen for any track?
Whenever I do this - as soon as I choose a patch # from the drop down list - the Bank and LSB go back to zero.
(So is manually editing the Patch in the Opt|Channel prefs the only way????)
Also Am I correct that you cannot choose patches outside of GM and GM2 for the other tracks (piano/bass/strings etc...)???
Can anyone help?
Thanks...
A patch is just a patch -- it's a number. You can define your own GM patch map so that any named patch can point to any numbered patch on your device (or soft-synth). You're right that you should be able to choose Bank and LSB from the main screen for any bank, but the instant you click Play it goes back to the data provided by the style. What you can do is to set those as you want them, then hit alt-F2 to bring up the Save With Patches dialog, then when that song reloads each time, those patches you set should still be set.

--
David H. Bailey
dhbailey@davidbaileymusicstudio.com


D F Tweedie
 

Since I'm also new to BIAB ... about 6 weeks into it ... I really appreciate the 'Alt+F2' tip. But it is a 'song' technique.

The bottom line is that you can't really make system changes so that any time you load a song or start a new one it plays that great acoustic piano patch you have on your softsynth or hardware. So, cumbersome is the word.

BIAB was designed with GM and GM2 in mind only. It is a quirky, eccentric program with some stellar features unmatched by other sequencing software, i.e., 'auto arranging.' But if you're used to modern sequencers, BIAB doesn't even appear to try to keep up with normal programming features. In fact, it seems like most of the development energy from PG Music goes into Real Band, their sequencing platform. A real shame that BIAB doesn't remain their first and highest priority.

DF


David H. Bailey
 

D F Tweedie wrote:
Since I'm also new to BIAB ... about 6 weeks into it ...
I really appreciate the 'Alt+F2' tip. But it is a 'song'
technique.
The bottom line is that you can't really make system
changes so that any time you load a song or start a new
one it plays that great acoustic piano patch you have on
your softsynth or hardware. So, cumbersome is the word.
[snip]

Actually that's not true -- you can define your own patch
map. Under the Opt. menu, click on Utilities and at the
bottom of the next submenu is an option Make an Advanced
Patch Map. When you select that you are presented with a
dialog where you can define any patch on your playback
device or softsynth to be called for any instrument within
the GM listing. So if your superb piano sound is on a bank
where you need to set the LSB to 16 and the patch you want
is number 89, you can define that for what BIAB calls
Acoustic Piano 1. Then any style which calls for Acoustic
Piano will use what you've defined for that sound.

--
David H. Bailey
dhbailey@davidbaileymusicstudio.com


D F Tweedie
 

David ...

I've tried to get help with this on the PG Music forums ... and while I've followed the instructions to make an advanced patch map, I've not had a lot of luck. One thing that I'm still a little unclear about is whether you have to manually reload that patch map each time ... or whether you can get the program to default to it. Could you please clarify?

However, even if this 'works' (and with a little help, I can get it working!) it does not really change the basic problem with how BIAB works in resetting to the 'styles' default patches in Drum, Piano, Guitar and Strings.

It is true with the patch map you now would now have an alternate 'permanent' assignment ... but as far as auditioning different patches ... say you had several different guitar patches you wanted to try ... you are still out of luck.

Normally in any sequencing program (I own 4 including Cubase 5 and have demoed all that run on a PC) once you have your midi tracks lined up with channel and 'instrument' assigned, you can near instantly audition different patches without losing any settings on the other tracks. Even when midi files have bank select and/ or program changes written in, you can either instruct the sequencer to filter out those messages or set your 'instrument' to disregard them.

So, I think 'quirky, eccentric and cumbersome' is a fair assessment of 'upper bank' functions in BIAB, while not for a moment forgetting where the program is brilliant: auto arranging.

DF

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David H. Bailey
 

D F Tweedie wrote:
David ...
I've tried to get help with this on the PG Music forums
... and while I've followed the instructions to make an
advanced patch map, I've not had a lot of luck. One thing
that I'm still a little unclear about is whether you have
to manually reload that patch map each time ... or
whether you can get the program to default to it. Could
you please clarify?
However, even if this 'works' (and with a little help, I
can get it working!) it does not really change the basic
problem with how BIAB works in resetting to the 'styles'
default patches in Drum, Piano, Guitar and Strings.
It is true with the patch map you now would now have an
alternate 'permanent' assignment ... but as far as
auditioning different patches ... say you had several
different guitar patches you wanted to try ... you are
still out of luck.
Normally in any sequencing program (I own 4 including
Cubase 5 and have demoed all that run on a PC) once you
have your midi tracks lined up with channel and
'instrument' assigned, you can near instantly audition
different patches without losing any settings on the
other tracks. Even when midi files have bank select and/
or program changes written in, you can either instruct
the sequencer to filter out those messages or set your
'instrument' to disregard them.
So, I think 'quirky, eccentric and cumbersome' is a fair
assessment of 'upper bank' functions in BIAB, while not
for a moment forgetting where the program is brilliant:
auto arranging.
I agree with you that quirky, eccentric and cumbersome is indeed fair assessment. What I had meant was that it was untrue that you couldn't change things. I definitely agree that this is yet another area where the PGMusic developers should spend some of our hard-earned upgrade dollars!

And I have to admit that I'm flying blind in this, trying to help you figure things out without having actually done them myself because I'm quite happy with the default GM bank sounds on my modules.

By clicking on the Help button in the Make an Advanced Patch Map dialog, the following is part of what shows up:

[quote]Say, for example, you have some great string sounds on your synth on Bank 4, Controller 32. With this feature you can not only get to them by selecting the Opt. | Utilities | Make an Advanced Patch map window; you can save them as part of your Band-in-a-Box setup by clicking the [Save] button. This will append your MYSETUP.DK file to include all of the patches you like to use, regardless of where they are on your synth.

This feature can also be effectively used by people who have a supported and preconfigurable setup. For example, if you wanted to change a your bass patch to play an octave down for that "funk" sound, enable the Octave box in the advanced settings, then enter a "-1" in the appropriate box. Select the Bass in the "Audition Changes on Channel" box and press the [Update] button to hear your changes.

If you like the changes you have made you can store your changes permanently by clicking the [Save] button. Your changes will then be appended to your MYSETUP.DK file and used for future sessions of Band-in-a-Box.
[endquote]

So to answer your question about reloading the file each time, it sure seems as if once you've defined this advanced patch map it should give you the sounds you initial define each time you restart the program. One thing I did notice in the Make An Advanced Patch Map dialog is the "Update Settings" button -- I'm not clear on what that does but it might be something you should investigate.

You are also able to create yet another file to help you define and make easy to get at sounds in higher banks. And that is a .PAT file, which you create in a text editor, and then load manually into BIAB. I don't know whether once you load it, it will reload automatically until you select another one or whether you need to load it each time you run BIAB. Once this is loaded, it should be easy to do as you wish, and try out different guitar sounds (for example) to find the one you like best.

There is info somewhere on the PGMusic web-site about how to create such a file, but one way to learn is to look at existing .PAT files and then either create a new one, or start with one which has the basic info you need and then edit the individual patch listings.

None of it's easy, but it should be possible, given the tools which PGMusic has included. The one horrible aspect of this all is the documentation -- that's one area where PGMusic has *never* excelled. In the early days, when the program was very self-explanatory and easily explored it didn't matter so much, but as it grew in complexity the documentation hasn't improved any, making it all so much harder than needs to be.

I hope this has helped and I'm sorry I can't be more specific about just what you need to do.

Good luck.

--
David H. Bailey
dhbailey@davidbaileymusicstudio.com


D F Tweedie
 

David,

Thank you for your comprehensive response and suggestions. I will continue to look into them, although my enthusiasm is somewhat quelled with the fact that I know ultimately for anything I want to record I'm going to drag a midi file from BIAB to my sequencer.

Best regards.

DF


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gary smith <gksmith@...>
 

Well I figured out how to use the Patch Map File stuff... thanks... so I can now easily click the + button to call up any patch in any bank... for whatever VST is plugged in...
 
But I can only get it to work for for the solo and melody tracks - Is this by design?
 
Anyone know???
 
Thanks


D F Tweedie
 

Yes. I tried to explain that before. The patch assignments for the other tracks are written into the styles themselves ... so each time you hit 'play' and it regenerates, it again sends out new midi messages and starts the same patch  or order of patches since a 'b' part might have a different patch on the piano, for example.

DF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rkl122
 

--- In Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com, gary smith <gksmith@...> wrote:


Well I figured out how to use the Patch Map File stuff... thanks... so I can now easily click the + button to call up any patch in any bank... for whatever VST is plugged in...
 
But I can only get it to work for for the solo and melody tracks - Is this by design?
 
Anyone know???
 
Thanks

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'd guess the style is setting patches on the other channels.

Try: Pref -> Midi Options and disable Style Patch Changes.

That's also what I'd have advised trying well before messing with editing styles for patch changes. If Prado is the same Prado who started this thread:

http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=260775&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

I'm a tad surprised he didn't refer you to it, since it contains relevant discussion. Some of the assertions/opinions made there have been repeated here, but the link also includes some suggestions from PGMusic. They may regard their approach as the "proper one," others of us (including me) may regard them as cumbersome workarounds, but I suspect most would prefer the patch map approach, for example, to editing styles.

Post back if the patch map issue is not solved by disabling style patch control.

-Ron


D F Tweedie
 

But I can only get it to work for for the solo and melody tracks - Is this by design?

Anyone know???
Yes, It is I. LOL

The possible advantage of using a 'save as' style, take a Cumbia for example, is that you might want to use the GM 'tango accordion' patch as a default each time instead of a piano or other keys.. You then simply copy the style file, paste it back in the folder, rename it to your liking, open it and edit the style patch property.

Now you have a template, still GM, that might be closer to the general way you want to work ... without having to deal with patches you don't like or want or a style you otherwise would like to use.

As far as going beyond GM, whether or not you could put in a bank select message, I don't know.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

DF



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gary smith <gksmith@...>
 

Thanks   
 
So Basically you....
 
(a) set up a patch file for your VST or softsynth
(b) Turn Style Patch Changes off
(c) as you work along save using  'Save Song with Patch Changes' and clicking Fill Patches prior to saving
 
... Man what a troublesome user interface... seems like it was designed in the late 80's or 90's
 
----
 
Anyways still one final question....I'm hoping someone can help with:
 
If I wan't to audition the sounds on the THRU channel - when I select a patch from the patch file - it plays the wrong instrument on THRU....   
 
What have i done wrong here LOL
 
thanks g


Gary Thompson
 

gary smith wrote:
Well I figured out how to use the Patch Map File stuff... thanks... so I can now easily click the + button to call up any patch in any bank... for whatever VST is plugged in...
But I can only get it to work for for the solo and melody tracks - Is this by design?
Anyone know???
I think this depends upon the style. If a patch has been pre-assigned in the style, then you are stuck with it. If you modify the style to indicate <no patch> for the instrument, then you should be able to assign the correct bank and patch. You can assign banks and patches within a style.

--
What I do today is important because I am paying a day of my life
for it. What I accomplish must be worthwhile because the price
is high.
--Anonymous


rkl122
 

--- In Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com, gary smith <gksmith@...> wrote:

 
Thanks   
 
So Basically you....
 
(a) set up a patch file for your VST or softsynth
(b) Turn Style Patch Changes off
(c) as you work along save using  'Save Song with Patch Changes' and clicking Fill Patches prior to saving
Yup. Except (c) should be optional in recent builds, because that's now the default. And if you've loaded a song that does have patch/bank settings, but now want to noodle with alternate patches, then you can turn off song control of patches as well. Do that in the midi options and/or overrides windows. Hence you prevent the song from resetting its own patches when you hit play.

Note that (as mentioned in the thread whose link I posted earlier), you can now save multiple BB configuration files (opt -> save preferences as). That might facilitate transitioning between different work modes.

... Man what a troublesome user interface... seems like it was designed in the late 80's or 90's
Part of it's charm ;-) If you think this is bad, it wasn't too many builds ago when they didn't send bank changes with *every* patch change. For some modes of working, that could really muddy the upper bank picture. Drove me nuts.

----
 
Anyways still one final question....I'm hoping someone can help with:
 
If I wan't to audition the sounds on the THRU channel - when I select a patch from the patch file - it plays the wrong instrument on THRU....   
 
What have i done wrong here LOL
 
Not sure whether you want to trigger sounds on the external controller or in the VST. In the channel settings dialog, make sure the thru channel is the one you want. (Default is 5.) Then in the midi driver window, toggle "Route midi thru to midi driver." If neither toggle gives the result you want, then in the midi options window, toggle "use thru channel." Some combination of those settings should fix the issue. If not, post back with more detail.

BTW, if you can get comfortable with the midi monitor, it will tell you exactly what's happening in real time. It's a direct way to observe the effect of toggling midi-related settings.

-Ron