Date   

Re: BIAB 2016 Audiophile for sale has 49 pak

David H. Bailey
 

On 3/7/2017 2:13 PM, gtorres@earthlink.net [Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


Hello David,

I have a student that I want to sell my 2015 version of BIAB (Mac).

I’m still using the 2016 version is there anyway to do it?

Thanks

Gene
[snip]

You've paid PGMusic for one single license which means that your serial number can't be used to activate any version for another person.

The real answer can only be gotten from PGMusic but from the way I understand the end-user license, you can't sell a previous version if you've upgraded to a newer version.



--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: BIAB 2016 Audiophile for sale has 49 pak

Torres, Gene
 

Hello David,

I have a student that I want to sell my 2015 version of BIAB (Mac).

I’m still using the 2016 version is there anyway to do  it?

Thanks

Gene

I’m in the BIAB forum as morbass@...


Re: BIAB 2016 Audiophile for sale has 49 pak

Torres, Gene
 

What about if your selling for example Mac 2015 while you're still using 2016? What is the correct procedure? If there is one?


FAWM (February Album Writing Month)

Jim
 

I have been remiss not mentioning to any songwriters of this group of the FAWM (February Album Writing Month) and its yearly challenge of writing 14 songs in 28 days.  I participated again this year and successfully completed the challenge.  My entries (short YouTube videos) can be found at http://fawm.org/fawmers/gemhughs/ or by selecting one of the links listed below.  Even though its not a requirement, I enjoy the challenge of using Biab to write songs which meet each week's challenge (Week 1: Write a song related to dreams, Week 2: Transform a classical piece, Week 3: Write a song about a smell, and Week 4: Include a section without chords).  If you are a songwriter or wish to participate, you can sign up next year at FAWM.org.  They also have a 50/90 challenge (50 songs in 90 days) which you can find at http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/ .  I believe it starts on July 4th, and as with FAWM, you don't to really knock all the songs, just have fun writing and sharing with others.


#1
Bad Dreams Week1 Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#2
Good Dreams Week1 Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#3
Dreaming Dreams Within Dreams Week1 Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#4
Hold On to Your Dream Week1Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#5
I'll Be Dreaming Dreams of You Week1 Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#6
We All Can Dream of a Better World Week1 Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#7
You're the Fool Who Let His Good Dream Slip Away Week1 Dreams Write a song related to dreams.
#8
For Me Week2 Classical Transform a classical piece.
#9
Dance with You Week2 Classical Transform a classical piece.
#10
Take a Bath Week3 Smell Write a song about a smell.
#11
I Think It Stinks Week3 Smell Write a song about a smell.
#12
The Fragrance of Your Sweet Love Week3 Smell Write a song about a smell.
#13
Smell the Fresh Air Week3 Smell Write a song about a smell.
#14
Girls Like You Week4 No Chord Include a section without chords


Jim
†=☮&♥


Re: Midi drums - single patches ?

Media Production
 

Excellent MIDI overview—thanks for the details in sharing.
 
Rodger
 

Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?
 
 

On 3/3/2017 4:41 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Morning, DF
>
> I accept everything you say, except 'empty' and possibly 'unlabelled'.
> (What is or would be an 'empty patch' ? )
>
> In a full spec for any midi synth, there will be (numbered) details of
> single percussion patches. Their exact attributions probably vary from
> synth to synth - that could be a reason why the Biab drop-down list goes
> no further than numbers. There are elements of this elsewhere in Biab
> e.g. @ {Preferences>Drumkit>set drum volumes}, and {edit styles> drum
> grid}. So if you are suggesting that all the slots other than the kits
> are sort of 'ghost slots', I'm not convinced.
>
> Nothing from PG yet.
>
> In other news, I have discovered that RealBand has a feature/wizard
> which is said to split a midi drum track into individual constituent
> tracks - which would be a very useful process. As RealBand is (as I
> understand it) natively 'RealSounds', I suspect there may be additional
> hoops to go through to get a midi drum track in the first place.
>
> For myself, I've never used RealBand, and am not yet sufficiently
> desperate to achieve my original purpose, to embark on a whole new
> learning curve in order to do so.
>
> Thanks for your continuing interest.
>

I think what DF meant by 'empty' or 'unlabelled' was that they don't
have any values assigned to them. So they are merely place-holders in
the list. And my limited programming knowledge/experience leads me to
believe that the reason there is such a long list of them is that the
code for that list was simply copied from another program module within
the program where there are values for all the entries in the list. But
that is just speculation.

I also think that you're confusing the midi note numbers of the drums
channel with patch numbers equivalent to the patch numbers of the
various other instruments. So, for example, Acoustic Grand Piano
(usually patch 0 or patch 1 depending on the numbering system a
particular synth maker uses) has 128 different pitches all sounding like
an acoustic grand piano. When you see a list of the drum sounds in the
owner's manual for a particular synth, even though it also has numbers
from either 0-127 or 1-128, those numbers are actually midi note numbers
within the patch assignment for that particular drum kit (jazz kit,
brushes kit, 909, rock kit, whatever). Be careful not to confuse those
note numbers with patch numbers.

So for example if in a particular drum kit list you see '60-high bongo',
if you're on any other channel besides channel 10 and enter patch number
60 for that channel you'll actually get a muted trumpet sound. But if
you've got a particular drum kit patch number entered for channel 10 and
then you play note #60, you'll get a muted trumpet sound. Which you'll
also get for every other note number.

Here's a link to lists which can help demonstrate what I'm saying:


RealBand is not natively anything -- it's merely a DAW waiting for the
user to import or create data for it to work with. You can load up midi
styles from BIAB and RealBand will create the parts like BIAB does.
Once you create the drum track and use RealBand's ability to break the
drum track to individual constituent tracks you'll be able to assign
different sounds to whatever drum-kit instrument you want. That's done
by assigning different midi note numbers to the track (i.e. transposing
the track) not by assigning different patches, since in the GM spec
there are not separate patch numbers for the various sounds within a
drum kit, but rather all the drum sounds are assigned to different
pitches within a drum-kit patch which is assigned to channel 10 by default.

The reasoning behind this, as I understand it, is that the GM spec has
128 slots for instruments which was then expanded to include higher
banks each of which had 128 slots which held similar instruments to the
same slot in bank 0 (the original GM bank.)

Since 'drum-kits' need so many potential sounds there was no way to
build the various drum sounds into the GM spec as individual patches, so
all 128 pitches (i.e. midi note numbers) can each hold a different
percussion sound thus allowing a GM user to still have 128 different
instrument patches while also having up to 128 different percussion
sounds on channel 10.

Remember that the midi spec was originally developed before the
widespread use of personal computers and was originally to be used from
keyboard to keyboard to keyboard without any computer in the chain.
That it has survived so efficiently into the world of personal computers
demonstrates what a wonderfully robust spec the original GM was. Which
also made it easy to add to it with the advent of a drum channel
(usually channel 10) which held 128 different sounds of its own and also
the addition of higher banks as the keyboards became more capable and as
personal computers entered the scene.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: Midi drums - single patches ?

D F Tweedie
 

David

LOL ... I should have read this email with your excellent explanation before posting my more ham-handed reply to Ian.

DF



From: "'David H. Bailey' dhbailey52@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

 
On 3/3/2017 4:41 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Morning, DF
>
> I accept everything you say, except 'empty' and possibly 'unlabelled'.
> (What is or would be an 'empty patch' ? )
>
> In a full spec for any midi synth, there will be (numbered) details of
> single percussion patches. Their exact attributions probably vary from
> synth to synth - that could be a reason why the Biab drop-down list goes
> no further than numbers. There are elements of this elsewhere in Biab
> e.g. @ {Preferences>Drumkit>set drum volumes}, and {edit styles> drum
> grid}. So if you are suggesting that all the slots other than the kits
> are sort of 'ghost slots', I'm not convinced.
>
> Nothing from PG yet.
>
> In other news, I have discovered that RealBand has a feature/wizard
> which is said to split a midi drum track into individual constituent
> tracks - which would be a very useful process. As RealBand is (as I
> understand it) natively 'RealSounds', I suspect there may be additional
> hoops to go through to get a midi drum track in the first place.
>
> For myself, I've never used RealBand, and am not yet sufficiently
> desperate to achieve my original purpose, to embark on a whole new
> learning curve in order to do so.
>
> Thanks for your continuing interest.
>

I think what DF meant by 'empty' or 'unlabelled' was that they don't
have any values assigned to them. So they are merely place-holders in
the list. And my limited programming knowledge/experience leads me to
believe that the reason there is such a long list of them is that the
code for that list was simply copied from another program module within
the program where there are values for all the entries in the list. But
that is just speculation.

I also think that you're confusing the midi note numbers of the drums
channel with patch numbers equivalent to the patch numbers of the
various other instruments. So, for example, Acoustic Grand Piano
(usually patch 0 or patch 1 depending on the numbering system a
particular synth maker uses) has 128 different pitches all sounding like
an acoustic grand piano. When you see a list of the drum sounds in the
owner's manual for a particular synth, even though it also has numbers
from either 0-127 or 1-128, those numbers are actually midi note numbers
within the patch assignment for that particular drum kit (jazz kit,
brushes kit, 909, rock kit, whatever). Be careful not to confuse those
note numbers with patch numbers.

So for example if in a particular drum kit list you see '60-high bongo',
if you're on any other channel besides channel 10 and enter patch number
60 for that channel you'll actually get a muted trumpet sound. But if
you've got a particular drum kit patch number entered for channel 10 and
then you play note #60, you'll get a muted trumpet sound. Which you'll
also get for every other note number.

Here's a link to lists which can help demonstrate what I'm saying:


RealBand is not natively anything -- it's merely a DAW waiting for the
user to import or create data for it to work with. You can load up midi
styles from BIAB and RealBand will create the parts like BIAB does.
Once you create the drum track and use RealBand's ability to break the
drum track to individual constituent tracks you'll be able to assign
different sounds to whatever drum-kit instrument you want. That's done
by assigning different midi note numbers to the track (i.e. transposing
the track) not by assigning different patches, since in the GM spec
there are not separate patch numbers for the various sounds within a
drum kit, but rather all the drum sounds are assigned to different
pitches within a drum-kit patch which is assigned to channel 10 by default.

The reasoning behind this, as I understand it, is that the GM spec has
128 slots for instruments which was then expanded to include higher
banks each of which had 128 slots which held similar instruments to the
same slot in bank 0 (the original GM bank.)

Since 'drum-kits' need so many potential sounds there was no way to
build the various drum sounds into the GM spec as individual patches, so
all 128 pitches (i.e. midi note numbers) can each hold a different
percussion sound thus allowing a GM user to still have 128 different
instrument patches while also having up to 128 different percussion
sounds on channel 10.

Remember that the midi spec was originally developed before the
widespread use of personal computers and was originally to be used from
keyboard to keyboard to keyboard without any computer in the chain.
That it has survived so efficiently into the world of personal computers
demonstrates what a wonderfully robust spec the original GM was. Which
also made it easy to add to it with the advent of a drum channel
(usually channel 10) which held 128 different sounds of its own and also
the addition of higher banks as the keyboards became more capable and as
personal computers entered the scene.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com



Re: Midi drums - single patches ?

D F Tweedie
 

Ian ...
Have you ever seen an empty shelf? Just because there are no books or other objects on it doesn't mean it's not a shelf.

So the architecture of the banks capable of holding 128 patches or sets of directions for the 128 different 'instruments' possible, each with its own 128 'sounds', used to store those instruments exist whether or not they have actually had sounds assigned to them. So the bank for General MIDI sounds only uses a small number of the patch locations, i.e., the numbers 1-128, to store its 7 different drum kits. Ergo, the rest are empty.
Yes, splitting MIDI drum files into individual drum tracks is the way to go. MIDI drum tracks are easy to come by ... just export the drum track you've used to make your song from BIAB and then split it and use it in RealBand.
But don't think of RealBand as the home of RealTracks or RealSounds. BIAB is an accompaniment arranger. RealBand is a DAW or digital audio workstation that has some exclusive capabilities to take advantage of BIAB.
All DAWs are capable for both MIDI and audio as well as generally being able to turn MIDI into audio and, to lesser success, turn audio into MIDI.
You really have all you need, with the exception of possibly good brush sample, as you could export a relatively close MIDI file from BIAB, split it up and massage it in RealBand and then build your own bank of drum sounds by using the Sforzando soundfont player to build your patch.

DF


From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com>
To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

  Morning, DF I accept everything you say, except 'empty' and possibly 'unlabelled'. (What is or would be an 'empty patch' ? ) In a full spec for any midi synth, there will be (numbered) details of single percussion patches. Their exact attributions probably vary from synth to synth - that could be a reason why the Biab drop-down list goes no further than numbers. There are elements of this elsewhere in Biab e.g. @ {Preferences>Drumkit>set drum volumes}, and {edit styles> drum grid}. So if you are suggesting that all the slots other than the kits are sort of 'ghost slots', I'm not convinced. Nothing from PG yet. In other news, I have discovered that RealBand has a feature/wizard which is said to split a midi drum track into individual constituent tracks - which would be a very useful process. As RealBand is (as I understand it) natively 'RealSounds', I suspect there may be additional hoops to go through to get a midi drum track in the first place.  For myself, I've never used RealBand, and am not yet sufficiently desperate to achieve my original purpose, to embark on a whole new learning curve in order to do so.  Thanks for your continuing interest. Ian G.  
----- Original Message ----- From: D F Tweedie bienpegaito@yahoo.com [Band-in-a-Box] To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?
  Ian ...
I understand exactly what part of the interface you are referring to: the patch selector. The numbers you see under Drum are for empty patches. Only the named kits patches have sound. Look at the links I sent you on General MIDI. You'll see that only a few of the possible 128 patches are populated by actual drum k

1 Standard Drum Kit
9 Room Drum Kit
17 Power Drum Kit
25 Electric Drum Kit
26 Rap TR808 Drums
33 Jazz Drum Kit
41  Brush Kit                        

All the interspersed, e.g., 2-8, and remaining numbers, i.e., 41-128,  will be unlabeled.
DF
From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com>
To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

   David and DF   I've renamed the thread to what it is now focussing on.   I am in Biab Version  2013 (366). I understand that 2017 was a bit of a step-change ? In which case, the feature I am picking at may well have been discontinued ?   But as I am, on the main screen, top left, there's the row of buttons for the Biab parts, and immediately below that, a two-row bar, with, at left, a box and drop down-list for midi patches. For most of the parts, the drop down is a simple GM list. For the drums, it is a numbered list of patches, a few of which are actually for kits as set up in the current midi 'synth', and the rest just appear as 'Drum Patch #.....', the numbers running through to 128. As far as I remember, this is as it has been in every version of Biab I've used (which covers about 11 years now. I think I first had 'version 11'). (If RD are enabled, the whole thing is greyed out. ) But I've never till now tried to explore what the single patches 'did'.   It is entirely, possible, DF, that I am misunderstanding something, because, at this moment, selecting a single patch option doesn't seem to be 'doing anything'. sound-wise - and yet the GUI feature I've tried to locate for you must originally have been programmed for some purpose. Midi drum scoring is essentially horizontal - what is repesented as a pitch (ie on a specific stave line or space) is actually just the marker for the fact that the patch it represents sounds at that time-point. So my early speculation was that selecting a single patch might re-direct the midi stream for the drum track to that sound alone; or possibly re-direct a single patch (but which, and how specified?) within the style to the drop-down-selected patch. This is, frankly, speculation in hope.   And, yes, the specific brush sounds are often the weakest point of a given 'synth'. Currently, I am trying to get a 'work-around' sort of effect with the various cymbals, which tend to be much better sounds, while also 'spreading', time-wise.   As I said, I have raised a query with PG Support, and I will post on whatever they say.   Greetings from Wales   Ian G.      

----- Original Message ----- From: D F Tweedie bienpegaito@yahoo.com [Band-in-a-Box] To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please
  Ian ...
I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.
However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.
Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.
GM 1 Sound Set


|
|
|
| | |

|

|
|
| |
GM 1 Sound Set
By MMA | |

|

|


But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists


|
| |
PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists
| |

|


.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.
DF


From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com>
To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

   David   I'm grateful for your time and patience.   It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.   Cheers   Ian
----- Original Message ----- From: 'David H. Bailey' dhbailey52@comcast.net [Band-in-a-Box] To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please
  On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


Hallo, David

I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
(midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
the effect of selecting a single patch should be.

If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com







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Re: Midi drums - single patches ? [Bailey correction]

David H. Bailey
 

On 3/3/2017 6:20 AM, 'David H. Bailey' dhbailey52@comcast.net [Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
[snip of the first part my original reply]

So for example if in a particular drum kit list you see '60-high bongo',
if you're on any other channel besides channel 10 and enter patch number
60 for that channel you'll actually get a muted trumpet sound. But if
you've got a particular drum kit patch number entered for channel 10 and
then you play note #60, you'll get a muted trumpet sound. Which you'll
also get for every other note number.
[snip of the rest of my original reply]

I was not clear in that paragraph -- what I meant to write was this:
[&#92;start edit]
So for example if in a particular drum kit list you see '60-high bongo,' if you're on any other channel besides channel 10 and enter patch number 60 for that channel you'll actually get a muted trumpet sound, which you'll get not only for note 60 but also for every other midi note number on that channel. If you're on channel 10 and have a drum kit loaded for that channel and hit note 60 you'll get the high bongo sound. But only on that note -- you'll get a different percussion sound for every other note number. But that's not the same as patch 60.

Also it is possible to enter a patch other than a drum kit for channel 10 and when you do that you'll get that patch's sound for every note and you won't get any drum sounds.
[&#92;end edit]

--
David H. Bailey
dhbailey@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: Midi drums - single patches ?

David H. Bailey
 

On 3/3/2017 4:41 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


Morning, DF

I accept everything you say, except 'empty' and possibly 'unlabelled'.
(What is or would be an 'empty patch' ? )

In a full spec for any midi synth, there will be (numbered) details of
single percussion patches. Their exact attributions probably vary from
synth to synth - that could be a reason why the Biab drop-down list goes
no further than numbers. There are elements of this elsewhere in Biab
e.g. @ {Preferences>Drumkit>set drum volumes}, and {edit styles> drum
grid}. So if you are suggesting that all the slots other than the kits
are sort of 'ghost slots', I'm not convinced.

Nothing from PG yet.

In other news, I have discovered that RealBand has a feature/wizard
which is said to split a midi drum track into individual constituent
tracks - which would be a very useful process. As RealBand is (as I
understand it) natively 'RealSounds', I suspect there may be additional
hoops to go through to get a midi drum track in the first place.

For myself, I've never used RealBand, and am not yet sufficiently
desperate to achieve my original purpose, to embark on a whole new
learning curve in order to do so.

Thanks for your continuing interest.
I think what DF meant by 'empty' or 'unlabelled' was that they don't have any values assigned to them. So they are merely place-holders in the list. And my limited programming knowledge/experience leads me to believe that the reason there is such a long list of them is that the code for that list was simply copied from another program module within the program where there are values for all the entries in the list. But that is just speculation.

I also think that you're confusing the midi note numbers of the drums channel with patch numbers equivalent to the patch numbers of the various other instruments. So, for example, Acoustic Grand Piano (usually patch 0 or patch 1 depending on the numbering system a particular synth maker uses) has 128 different pitches all sounding like an acoustic grand piano. When you see a list of the drum sounds in the owner's manual for a particular synth, even though it also has numbers from either 0-127 or 1-128, those numbers are actually midi note numbers within the patch assignment for that particular drum kit (jazz kit, brushes kit, 909, rock kit, whatever). Be careful not to confuse those note numbers with patch numbers.

So for example if in a particular drum kit list you see '60-high bongo', if you're on any other channel besides channel 10 and enter patch number 60 for that channel you'll actually get a muted trumpet sound. But if you've got a particular drum kit patch number entered for channel 10 and then you play note #60, you'll get a muted trumpet sound. Which you'll also get for every other note number.

Here's a link to lists which can help demonstrate what I'm saying:
<https://www.midi.org/specifications/item/gm-level-1-sound-set>

RealBand is not natively anything -- it's merely a DAW waiting for the user to import or create data for it to work with. You can load up midi styles from BIAB and RealBand will create the parts like BIAB does. Once you create the drum track and use RealBand's ability to break the drum track to individual constituent tracks you'll be able to assign different sounds to whatever drum-kit instrument you want. That's done by assigning different midi note numbers to the track (i.e. transposing the track) not by assigning different patches, since in the GM spec there are not separate patch numbers for the various sounds within a drum kit, but rather all the drum sounds are assigned to different pitches within a drum-kit patch which is assigned to channel 10 by default.

The reasoning behind this, as I understand it, is that the GM spec has 128 slots for instruments which was then expanded to include higher banks each of which had 128 slots which held similar instruments to the same slot in bank 0 (the original GM bank.)

Since 'drum-kits' need so many potential sounds there was no way to build the various drum sounds into the GM spec as individual patches, so all 128 pitches (i.e. midi note numbers) can each hold a different percussion sound thus allowing a GM user to still have 128 different instrument patches while also having up to 128 different percussion sounds on channel 10.

Remember that the midi spec was originally developed before the widespread use of personal computers and was originally to be used from keyboard to keyboard to keyboard without any computer in the chain. That it has survived so efficiently into the world of personal computers demonstrates what a wonderfully robust spec the original GM was. Which also made it easy to add to it with the advent of a drum channel (usually channel 10) which held 128 different sounds of its own and also the addition of higher banks as the keyboards became more capable and as personal computers entered the scene.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: Midi drums - single patches ?

IAN GRAHAM
 


Morning, DF
 
I accept everything you say, except 'empty' and possibly 'unlabelled'. (What is or would be an 'empty patch' ? )
 
In a full spec for any midi synth, there will be (numbered) details of single percussion patches. Their exact attributions probably vary from synth to synth - that could be a reason why the Biab drop-down list goes no further than numbers. There are elements of this elsewhere in Biab e.g. @ {Preferences>Drumkit>set drum volumes}, and {edit styles> drum grid}. So if you are suggesting that all the slots other than the kits are sort of 'ghost slots', I'm not convinced.
 
Nothing from PG yet.
 
In other news, I have discovered that RealBand has a feature/wizard which is said to split a midi drum track into individual constituent tracks - which would be a very useful process. As RealBand is (as I understand it) natively 'RealSounds', I suspect there may be additional hoops to go through to get a midi drum track in the first place.
 
For myself, I've never used RealBand, and am not yet sufficiently desperate to achieve my original purpose, to embark on a whole new learning curve in order to do so.
 
Thanks for your continuing interest.
 
Ian G.
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

 

Ian ...

I understand exactly what part of the interface you are referring to: the patch selector. The numbers you see under Drum are for empty patches. Only the named kits patches have sound. Look at the links I sent you on General MIDI. You'll see that only a few of the possible 128 patches are populated by actual drum k

1 Standard Drum Kit
9 Room Drum Kit
17 Power Drum Kit
25 Electric Drum Kit
26 Rap TR808 Drums
33 Jazz Drum Kit
41  Brush Kit                        

All the interspersed, e.g., 2-8, and remaining numbers, i.e., 41-128,  will be unlabeled.

DF


From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

 

David and DF
 
I've renamed the thread to what it is now focussing on.
 
I am in Biab Version  2013 (366). I understand that 2017 was a bit of a step-change ? In which case, the feature I am picking at may well have been discontinued ?
 
But as I am, on the main screen, top left, there's the row of buttons for the Biab parts, and immediately below that, a two-row bar, with, at left, a box and drop down-list for midi patches.
For most of the parts, the drop down is a simple GM list.
For the drums, it is a numbered list of patches, a few of which are actually for kits as set up in the current midi 'synth', and the rest just appear as 'Drum Patch #.....', the numbers running through to 128.
As far as I remember, this is as it has been in every version of Biab I've used (which covers about 11 years now. I think I first had 'version 11'). (If RD are enabled, the whole thing is greyed out. ) But I've never till now tried to explore what the single patches 'did'.
 
It is entirely, possible, DF, that I am misunderstanding something, because, at this moment, selecting a single patch option doesn't seem to be 'doing anything'. sound-wise - and yet the GUI feature I've tried to locate for you must originally have been programmed for some purpose. Midi drum scoring is essentially horizontal - what is repesented as a pitch (ie on a specific stave line or space) is actually just the marker for the fact that the patch it represents sounds at that time-point. So my early speculation was that selecting a single patch might re-direct the midi stream for the drum track to that sound alone; or possibly re-direct a single patch (but which, and how specified?) within the style to the drop-down-selected patch. This is, frankly, speculation in hope.
 
And, yes, the specific brush sounds are often the weakest point of a given 'synth'. Currently, I am trying to get a 'work-around' sort of effect with the various cymbals, which tend to be much better sounds, while also 'spreading', time-wise.
 
As I said, I have raised a query with PG Support, and I will post on whatever they say.
 
Greetings from Wales
 
Ian G.
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
Ian ...

I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.

However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.

Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.



But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists



.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.

DF



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@...>
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

David
 
I'm grateful for your time and patience.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.
 
Cheers
 
Ian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Hallo, David
>
> I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
> (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
> the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
>
> If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
> then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
> would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
>

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com





Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

kowalewskifelishacpy@...
 

Great, Thanks!
 


Sent from Yahoo Mail. Get the app


On Thursday, March 2, 2017 4:56 PM, "D F Tweedie bienpegaito@... [Band-in-a-Box]" wrote:


 
Ian ...

I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.

However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.

Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.



But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists



.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.

DF



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

David
 
I'm grateful for your time and patience.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.
 
Cheers
 
Ian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Hallo, David
>
> I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
> (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
> the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
>
> If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
> then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
> would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
>

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com





Re: Midi drums - single patches ?

D F Tweedie
 

Ian ...

I understand exactly what part of the interface you are referring to: the patch selector. The numbers you see under Drum are for empty patches. Only the named kits patches have sound. Look at the links I sent you on General MIDI. You'll see that only a few of the possible 128 patches are populated by actual drum k

1 Standard Drum Kit
9 Room Drum Kit
17 Power Drum Kit
25 Electric Drum Kit
26 Rap TR808 Drums
33 Jazz Drum Kit
41  Brush Kit                        

All the interspersed, e.g., 2-8, and remaining numbers, i.e., 41-128,  will be unlabeled.

DF


From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

 

David and DF
 
I've renamed the thread to what it is now focussing on.
 
I am in Biab Version  2013 (366). I understand that 2017 was a bit of a step-change ? In which case, the feature I am picking at may well have been discontinued ?
 
But as I am, on the main screen, top left, there's the row of buttons for the Biab parts, and immediately below that, a two-row bar, with, at left, a box and drop down-list for midi patches.
For most of the parts, the drop down is a simple GM list.
For the drums, it is a numbered list of patches, a few of which are actually for kits as set up in the current midi 'synth', and the rest just appear as 'Drum Patch #.....', the numbers running through to 128.
As far as I remember, this is as it has been in every version of Biab I've used (which covers about 11 years now. I think I first had 'version 11'). (If RD are enabled, the whole thing is greyed out. ) But I've never till now tried to explore what the single patches 'did'.
 
It is entirely, possible, DF, that I am misunderstanding something, because, at this moment, selecting a single patch option doesn't seem to be 'doing anything'. sound-wise - and yet the GUI feature I've tried to locate for you must originally have been programmed for some purpose. Midi drum scoring is essentially horizontal - what is repesented as a pitch (ie on a specific stave line or space) is actually just the marker for the fact that the patch it represents sounds at that time-point. So my early speculation was that selecting a single patch might re-direct the midi stream for the drum track to that sound alone; or possibly re-direct a single patch (but which, and how specified?) within the style to the drop-down-selected patch. This is, frankly, speculation in hope.
 
And, yes, the specific brush sounds are often the weakest point of a given 'synth'. Currently, I am trying to get a 'work-around' sort of effect with the various cymbals, which tend to be much better sounds, while also 'spreading', time-wise.
 
As I said, I have raised a query with PG Support, and I will post on whatever they say.
 
Greetings from Wales
 
Ian G.
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
Ian ...

I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.

However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.

Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.



But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists



.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.

DF



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

David
 
I'm grateful for your time and patience.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.
 
Cheers
 
Ian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Hallo, David
>
> I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
> (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
> the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
>
> If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
> then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
> would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
>

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com





Midi drums - single patches ?

IAN GRAHAM
 


David and DF
 
I've renamed the thread to what it is now focussing on.
 
I am in Biab Version  2013 (366). I understand that 2017 was a bit of a step-change ? In which case, the feature I am picking at may well have been discontinued ?
 
But as I am, on the main screen, top left, there's the row of buttons for the Biab parts, and immediately below that, a two-row bar, with, at left, a box and drop down-list for midi patches.
For most of the parts, the drop down is a simple GM list.
For the drums, it is a numbered list of patches, a few of which are actually for kits as set up in the current midi 'synth', and the rest just appear as 'Drum Patch #.....', the numbers running through to 128.
As far as I remember, this is as it has been in every version of Biab I've used (which covers about 11 years now. I think I first had 'version 11'). (If RD are enabled, the whole thing is greyed out. ) But I've never till now tried to explore what the single patches 'did'.
 
It is entirely, possible, DF, that I am misunderstanding something, because, at this moment, selecting a single patch option doesn't seem to be 'doing anything'. sound-wise - and yet the GUI feature I've tried to locate for you must originally have been programmed for some purpose. Midi drum scoring is essentially horizontal - what is repesented as a pitch (ie on a specific stave line or space) is actually just the marker for the fact that the patch it represents sounds at that time-point. So my early speculation was that selecting a single patch might re-direct the midi stream for the drum track to that sound alone; or possibly re-direct a single patch (but which, and how specified?) within the style to the drop-down-selected patch. This is, frankly, speculation in hope.
 
And, yes, the specific brush sounds are often the weakest point of a given 'synth'. Currently, I am trying to get a 'work-around' sort of effect with the various cymbals, which tend to be much better sounds, while also 'spreading', time-wise.
 
As I said, I have raised a query with PG Support, and I will post on whatever they say.
 
Greetings from Wales
 
Ian G.
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

Ian ...

I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.

However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.

Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.



But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists



.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.

DF



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

David
 
I'm grateful for your time and patience.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.
 
Cheers
 
Ian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Hallo, David
>
> I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
> (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
> the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
>
> If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
> then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
> would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
>

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com



Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

D F Tweedie
 

Ian ...

I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.

However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.

Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.



But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists



.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.

DF



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

David
 
I'm grateful for your time and patience.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.
 
Cheers
 
Ian
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Hallo, David
>
> I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
> (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
> the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
>
> If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
> then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
> would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
>

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com



Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

David H. Bailey
 

On 3/2/2017 9:06 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


David

I'm grateful for your time and patience.

It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the
drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have
emailed support@PG <mailto:support@PG> and will report anything they
tell me.
[snip]

Which version are you using? I'm on BIAB2017 and when I right click on the Drums instrument label all I see that comes close to what you call 'select single patch' is labeled "Select Midi Instrument (Patch)". If I select that there is a choice to select a GM patch, but none of those instruments are drum patches. Mostly the "Select Midi Instrument (Patch)" is to select a different drum kit.

I'd love to know how you're getting to your 'select single patch' option.


--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

IAN GRAHAM
 


David
 
I'm grateful for your time and patience.
 
It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.
 
Cheers
 
Ian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Hallo, David
>
> I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
> (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
> the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
>
> If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
> then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
> would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
>

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

David H. Bailey
 

On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


Hallo, David

I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
(midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
the effect of selecting a single patch should be.

If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?

I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the "high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat, crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set. Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog, there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo" is not one of the instruments to choose in the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.


--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

IAN GRAHAM
 


Hallo, David
 
I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about (midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what the effect of selecting a single patch should be.
 
If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
 
Sorry to be dense !
 
Ian

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

On 2/28/2017 8:07 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@...
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:
> 
>
> Thank you, DFF, for this.
>
> Taking your 'aside' first, I entirely agree - but I think we both know
> that ain't likely to happen any time soon !
>
> Your point about quantising a swing style is a fair one, and I can
> therefore modify my original enquiry to delete 'EV' as a specification.
> What I'd like, in this instance, is a drum track that is swirly, not
> very kicky, ambient - ie probably stroked brushes plus some sort of
> cymbal(s); and rather subtly 'swung' - ie a swing ratio closer to parity
> than the default 2:1 or 3:1 ( - although that can maybe also be got at
> by quantising).
>
> Either my original post was as clear as mud to most people, or (given
> the usually active and responsive support of this group) what I'm
> looking for just isn't there.
>
> Is it fair to say, as additional comment, that though Biab makes clear
> specific provision for 'Brushes' in both RD and Midi, it is generally
> inclined to be rather robust and exuberant in its 'drumming'? The two
> places that I know of in Biab where there are kit lists, have lists that
> are pretty entirely devoted to 'hit' rather than 'stroked' instruments. .
>
> As an additional question:
>
> with RD drums NOT enabled, the drop-down patch list for Drums offers a
> small number of choices that are for specific kits (41=Brushes being the
> obvious example) but the great majority appear to be for specific
> patches - ie specific bits of a drum kit. Am I understanding that right ?
>
> So on the face of it, selecting, one at a time, two or three specific
> patches and saving to midi each time, might be a way to go ?
>
> But in fact I can't hear that Biab is responding to my choice of patch
> at all - there's always still more than one patch audible, for one
> thing. You might expect "Patch 67" ('High Agogo', from the
> Preference>Drum Kit patch list) to be rather distinctive, but I don't
> think that's what I'm hearing. Do I have to additionally enable that
> choice in some way ?
>
[snip]

I think the lack of response to your requests for suggested styles is
quite likely because most of the members of this group haven't been
looking for that sort of sound. So it might be there -- you'll just
need to sample all the styles which look like they might be somewhat
close in the StylePicker.

Regarding your last paragraph, changing the patch for individual
instruments in a drum kit only affects the drums in Midi styles -- all
the Real Styles have their drum sounds "hard wired" into the style.
They're recorded samples, so what's already been recorded can't be
changed. But for Midi drums, the sounds that are selected can be
changed. However, in order to hear the effect of the change, the style
you're listening to has to make use of the changed instrument. So a
person can change the patch for "high agogo" for example as many times
as they wish, but if the style hasn't made use of the "high agogo"
instrument in the drum part then you'll never hear the effect of the
changes.

The list of drum kits is just that -- where you see "brushes - 41" all
the choices are for various GM drum kits. To change the sound of
individual instruments (e.g. to get a brushes sound on the cymbals) you
need to use the Drum Kit dialog in the Preferences, where you alter the
patches to what you want and then save it as a custom drum kit and then
you'll need to select that drum kit specifically for any song you want
to use it in, or you'll need to use the StyleMaker to edit a style or
two to use that drum kit and then save the styles under new names so as
not to overwrite the originals.

It sounds as if you've got a very specific sound in mind for the ideal
drum kit for your song, so you may need to program your own style --
start with a style which has piano/bass/guitar/strings programmed as you
like, then edit the drum patterns.

Good luck!
--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@...
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

David H. Bailey
 

On 2/28/2017 8:07 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


Thank you, DFF, for this.

Taking your 'aside' first, I entirely agree - but I think we both know
that ain't likely to happen any time soon !

Your point about quantising a swing style is a fair one, and I can
therefore modify my original enquiry to delete 'EV' as a specification.
What I'd like, in this instance, is a drum track that is swirly, not
very kicky, ambient - ie probably stroked brushes plus some sort of
cymbal(s); and rather subtly 'swung' - ie a swing ratio closer to parity
than the default 2:1 or 3:1 ( - although that can maybe also be got at
by quantising).

Either my original post was as clear as mud to most people, or (given
the usually active and responsive support of this group) what I'm
looking for just isn't there.

Is it fair to say, as additional comment, that though Biab makes clear
specific provision for 'Brushes' in both RD and Midi, it is generally
inclined to be rather robust and exuberant in its 'drumming'? The two
places that I know of in Biab where there are kit lists, have lists that
are pretty entirely devoted to 'hit' rather than 'stroked' instruments. .

As an additional question:

with RD drums NOT enabled, the drop-down patch list for Drums offers a
small number of choices that are for specific kits (41=Brushes being the
obvious example) but the great majority appear to be for specific
patches - ie specific bits of a drum kit. Am I understanding that right ?

So on the face of it, selecting, one at a time, two or three specific
patches and saving to midi each time, might be a way to go ?

But in fact I can't hear that Biab is responding to my choice of patch
at all - there's always still more than one patch audible, for one
thing. You might expect "Patch 67" ('High Agogo', from the
Preference>Drum Kit patch list) to be rather distinctive, but I don't
think that's what I'm hearing. Do I have to additionally enable that
choice in some way ?
[snip]

I think the lack of response to your requests for suggested styles is quite likely because most of the members of this group haven't been looking for that sort of sound. So it might be there -- you'll just need to sample all the styles which look like they might be somewhat close in the StylePicker.

Regarding your last paragraph, changing the patch for individual instruments in a drum kit only affects the drums in Midi styles -- all the Real Styles have their drum sounds "hard wired" into the style. They're recorded samples, so what's already been recorded can't be changed. But for Midi drums, the sounds that are selected can be changed. However, in order to hear the effect of the change, the style you're listening to has to make use of the changed instrument. So a person can change the patch for "high agogo" for example as many times as they wish, but if the style hasn't made use of the "high agogo" instrument in the drum part then you'll never hear the effect of the changes.

The list of drum kits is just that -- where you see "brushes - 41" all the choices are for various GM drum kits. To change the sound of individual instruments (e.g. to get a brushes sound on the cymbals) you need to use the Drum Kit dialog in the Preferences, where you alter the patches to what you want and then save it as a custom drum kit and then you'll need to select that drum kit specifically for any song you want to use it in, or you'll need to use the StyleMaker to edit a style or two to use that drum kit and then save the styles under new names so as not to overwrite the originals.

It sounds as if you've got a very specific sound in mind for the ideal drum kit for your song, so you may need to program your own style --
start with a style which has piano/bass/guitar/strings programmed as you like, then edit the drum patterns.

Good luck!
--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com


Re: (drum) Style suggestion, please

D F Tweedie
 

Ian, wish I could be of more help ... but I've never really delved into RB.

What I can tell you is that, yes,  most sequencers I've ever used  do in fact have variable swing settings that you can dial in to your liking with quantization.

I did snoop around to see where one might find jazz swirly brushes and came across this about the EZDrummer Jazz kit. See the last two comments, particularly.


Obviously the sample has to already be of the right type of hit to sound authentic and apparently so far there hasn't been a big enough demand for this type of drumming to have the manufacturers respond in a significant way.

DF



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a-Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 

 Thank you, DFF, for this.
Taking your 'aside' first, I entirely agree - but I think we both know that ain't likely to happen any time soon !
Your point about quantising a swing style is a fair one, and I can therefore modify my original enquiry to delete 'EV' as a specification. What I'd like, in this instance, is a drum track that is swirly, not very kicky, ambient - ie probably stroked brushes plus some sort of cymbal(s); and rather subtly 'swung' - ie a swing ratio closer to parity than the default 2:1 or 3:1 ( - although that can maybe also be got at by quantising).
Either my original post was as clear as mud to most people, or (given the usually active and responsive support of this group) what I'm looking for just isn't there.
Is it fair to say, as additional comment, that though Biab makes clear specific provision for 'Brushes' in both RD and Midi, it is generally inclined to be rather robust and exuberant in its 'drumming'? The two places that I know of in Biab where there are kit lists, have lists that are pretty entirely devoted to 'hit' rather than 'stroked' instruments. .
As an additional question:
with RD drums NOT enabled, the drop-down patch list for Drums offers a small number of choices that are for specific kits (41=Brushes being the obvious example) but the great majority appear to be for specific patches - ie specific bits of a drum kit. Am I understanding that right ?
So on the face of it, selecting, one at a time, two or three specific patches and saving to midi each time, might be a way to go ?
But in fact I can't hear that Biab is responding to my choice of patch at all - there's always still more than one patch audible, for one thing. You might expect "Patch 67" ('High Agogo', from the Preference>Drum Kit patch list) to be rather distinctive, but I don't think that's what I'm hearing. Do I have to additionally enable that choice in some way ?
Sincerely
Ian G
Wales
UK
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
I am probably stating the obvious, but MIDI is your friend.

If you find one of the older, non-RD styles simpatico, you can massage it in RealBand or your sequencer of choice. You can even take a swing style and straighten it out easily with quantization. Then of course you can thin out the drum hits, change the velocity and voice the different drums as you please.

As an aside, while I do find some of the RealDrums sound really good, I wish that the individual drums were available instead of a mixed down track. Then you could massage and process them, e.g., lower the volume, change the eq, etc., to t ailor a drum track to your liking.

Presumably this would be an easy thing for BIAB to do as they already undoubtedly record the drums multitrack.



From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@... [Band-in-a- Box]"
To: Band-in-a-Box@...
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2017 6:22 AM
Subject: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

 
Hallo, group
 
I wonder if anyone can help me with this ?
 
I'm trying to find a drum style which is Ev rather than Sw, but still (a) definitely jazz and not rock/country/funk and (b) not Latin, and also (c) just a bit (well, quite a lot, actually) quieter than what I've found so far, in a fairly extensive search of the Stylefinder and the Real Drums style picker.
 
The  RD Jazz Even 8, for example, has a very busy 'front sound' on the drums, and two heavy back beats, though the ride is pretty much what I'd like. I'd like something rather more 'swirly' - and even the RD Ev brushes is actually quite thumpy.
 
Not that RD are essential. A midi route would at least offer the possibility of editing if necessary.
 
Any ideas much appreciated.
 
Ian G
Wales UK
 
 
 
 




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