Re: Midi drums - single patches ?


D F Tweedie
 

Ian ...
Have you ever seen an empty shelf? Just because there are no books or other objects on it doesn't mean it's not a shelf.

So the architecture of the banks capable of holding 128 patches or sets of directions for the 128 different 'instruments' possible, each with its own 128 'sounds', used to store those instruments exist whether or not they have actually had sounds assigned to them. So the bank for General MIDI sounds only uses a small number of the patch locations, i.e., the numbers 1-128, to store its 7 different drum kits. Ergo, the rest are empty.
Yes, splitting MIDI drum files into individual drum tracks is the way to go. MIDI drum tracks are easy to come by ... just export the drum track you've used to make your song from BIAB and then split it and use it in RealBand.
But don't think of RealBand as the home of RealTracks or RealSounds. BIAB is an accompaniment arranger. RealBand is a DAW or digital audio workstation that has some exclusive capabilities to take advantage of BIAB.
All DAWs are capable for both MIDI and audio as well as generally being able to turn MIDI into audio and, to lesser success, turn audio into MIDI.
You really have all you need, with the exception of possibly good brush sample, as you could export a relatively close MIDI file from BIAB, split it up and massage it in RealBand and then build your own bank of drum sounds by using the Sforzando soundfont player to build your patch.

DF


From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com>
To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

  Morning, DF I accept everything you say, except 'empty' and possibly 'unlabelled'. (What is or would be an 'empty patch' ? ) In a full spec for any midi synth, there will be (numbered) details of single percussion patches. Their exact attributions probably vary from synth to synth - that could be a reason why the Biab drop-down list goes no further than numbers. There are elements of this elsewhere in Biab e.g. @ {Preferences>Drumkit>set drum volumes}, and {edit styles> drum grid}. So if you are suggesting that all the slots other than the kits are sort of 'ghost slots', I'm not convinced. Nothing from PG yet. In other news, I have discovered that RealBand has a feature/wizard which is said to split a midi drum track into individual constituent tracks - which would be a very useful process. As RealBand is (as I understand it) natively 'RealSounds', I suspect there may be additional hoops to go through to get a midi drum track in the first place.  For myself, I've never used RealBand, and am not yet sufficiently desperate to achieve my original purpose, to embark on a whole new learning curve in order to do so.  Thanks for your continuing interest. Ian G.  
----- Original Message ----- From: D F Tweedie bienpegaito@yahoo.com [Band-in-a-Box] To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?
  Ian ...
I understand exactly what part of the interface you are referring to: the patch selector. The numbers you see under Drum are for empty patches. Only the named kits patches have sound. Look at the links I sent you on General MIDI. You'll see that only a few of the possible 128 patches are populated by actual drum k

1 Standard Drum Kit
9 Room Drum Kit
17 Power Drum Kit
25 Electric Drum Kit
26 Rap TR808 Drums
33 Jazz Drum Kit
41  Brush Kit                        

All the interspersed, e.g., 2-8, and remaining numbers, i.e., 41-128,  will be unlabeled.
DF
From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com>
To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: [Band-in-a-Box] Midi drums - single patches ?

   David and DF   I've renamed the thread to what it is now focussing on.   I am in Biab Version  2013 (366). I understand that 2017 was a bit of a step-change ? In which case, the feature I am picking at may well have been discontinued ?   But as I am, on the main screen, top left, there's the row of buttons for the Biab parts, and immediately below that, a two-row bar, with, at left, a box and drop down-list for midi patches. For most of the parts, the drop down is a simple GM list. For the drums, it is a numbered list of patches, a few of which are actually for kits as set up in the current midi 'synth', and the rest just appear as 'Drum Patch #.....', the numbers running through to 128. As far as I remember, this is as it has been in every version of Biab I've used (which covers about 11 years now. I think I first had 'version 11'). (If RD are enabled, the whole thing is greyed out. ) But I've never till now tried to explore what the single patches 'did'.   It is entirely, possible, DF, that I am misunderstanding something, because, at this moment, selecting a single patch option doesn't seem to be 'doing anything'. sound-wise - and yet the GUI feature I've tried to locate for you must originally have been programmed for some purpose. Midi drum scoring is essentially horizontal - what is repesented as a pitch (ie on a specific stave line or space) is actually just the marker for the fact that the patch it represents sounds at that time-point. So my early speculation was that selecting a single patch might re-direct the midi stream for the drum track to that sound alone; or possibly re-direct a single patch (but which, and how specified?) within the style to the drop-down-selected patch. This is, frankly, speculation in hope.   And, yes, the specific brush sounds are often the weakest point of a given 'synth'. Currently, I am trying to get a 'work-around' sort of effect with the various cymbals, which tend to be much better sounds, while also 'spreading', time-wise.   As I said, I have raised a query with PG Support, and I will post on whatever they say.   Greetings from Wales   Ian G.      

----- Original Message ----- From: D F Tweedie bienpegaito@yahoo.com [Band-in-a-Box] To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please
  Ian ...
I think you are misunderstanding 'single patch.'

A single patch of a piano would give you the sound of the piano from lowest to highest note depending upon what keyboard note you pressed.
However,  a single patch of a drum kit would give you a different drum sound per each individual key.
Unlike instrument patches, General MIDI drum patches vary in what is included after the convention of using 81 of  the possible 128 notes. The GM standard drum kit does not include brushes.
GM 1 Sound Set


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GM 1 Sound Set
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But the GM Brush Kit does (patch #41 on Channel 10).

PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists


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PG Music - Tutorials - General MIDI instrument and drum kit lists
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.The Jazz kit may also have some brush sounds on the snares.

In the end, the sound will be limited by the quality of the GM sound source you are using.
DF


From: "'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com [Band-in-a-Box]" <Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com>
To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2017 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please

   David   I'm grateful for your time and patience.   It's possible, I suppose, that 'select single patch' option in the drop-down list from Drums is a relic with no current function. I have emailed support@PG and will report anything they tell me.   Cheers   Ian
----- Original Message ----- From: 'David H. Bailey' dhbailey52@comcast.net [Band-in-a-Box] To: Band-in-a-Box@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [Band-in-a-Box] (drum) Style suggestion, please
  On 3/1/2017 10:57 AM, 'Ian Graham' idgraham@btinternet.com
[Band-in-a-Box] wrote:


Hallo, David

I'm very grateful, as ever, for your input. I understand entirely about
(midi) drum sets/kits. What I'm still not entirely clear about is what
the effect of selecting a single patch should be.

If I identified all the percussion instruments used in a style, and
then, with that style selected, selected one of them individually , what
would the effect be? Would all the other percussion parts be muted ?
I'm not sure you can do that -- I don't know of anyplace within BIAB
where you can select just a single instrument from the drum kit. But
even if you could, you would need to mute all the other instruments in
that drum kit. And then that particular instrument would need to be one
that was actually used in the various patterns within that style.

So, to get back to your example from previously of the patch for the
"high agogo" -- it doesn't matter what patch number you select for that
if the style doesn't make use of "high agogo." You'll never hear the
effect of changing that patch.

My advice is to experiment with creating your own custom drum set by
editing the patches in the drum kit in the Preferences/DrumKit and
saving it under a new name and then loading that drum kit into a song
file and see what happens. Put crazy patch numbers into each of the
main drumkit instruments (Bass Drum, Snare Drum, all 3 toms, high hat,
crash and ride cymbals) and see what happens when you use that drum set.
Be careful not to simply save over one of PGMusic's drumkits or you'll
regret it. Perhaps you should copy the original files into a sub-folder
labeled something like "Original DrumKits" so that if you do
accidentally save over one of the originals, you can always copy the
original back into the main BB folder.

To try to learn more, I just opened the StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle
dialog and selected Drum and then Edit Pattern and see that there are
only 18 drums/cymbals listed, whereas in the Preferences/DrumKit dialog,
there are 29 possible instruments listed. And things like "High Agogo"
is not one of the instruments to choose in the
StyleMaker/EditCurrentStyle dialog, so I don't know why that's even
listed at all in the DrumKitDefinition dialog.

So I am as much in the dark about this drum kit stuff as you are.

Sorry I can't be more helpful -- but my limited research shows that you
may not be able to do exactly what you want to do. I am hopeful that
others who know more about this will chime in with some suggestions.

--
*****
David H. Bailey
dhbailey52@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com







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